As part of a series of election interviews with party leaders, Krishnan Guru-Murthy spoke to John Swinney.
Krishnan Guru-Murthy: Who do you want to be prime minister?
John Swinney: I think the Conservatives have thrown away their chances of becoming a UK government with their record, so I think Keir Starmer will be prime minister.
Krishnan Guru-Murthy: It’s time for a change, isn’t it? What is the general mood in England?
John Swinney: I think it depends. It must be a change of British government, yes. But does that mean a change in what the Labor Party has to offer? Because of what I have seen, the Labor Party offers the same position as the Conservatives on Brexit, the same position on austerity, the same position on issues such as the two-child limit that is implemented or sending children into poverty. concept.
Krishnan Guru-Murthy: But you want him to be prime minister because you think he has changed?
John Swinney: I think what I’m getting at is that we need to get rid of the Conservatives. The Conservatives are doing untold damage to Britain, and the debate in this election should be about what to do next and we should not automatically accept that whatever the Labor Party and Keir Starmer say should be the sum of our ambitions, because they are certainly not the sum of my ambitions, because it will carry out the Conservative austerity agenda and will do more damage to this country than Brexit. And I thought it was a disaster.
Krishnan Guru-Murthy: The problem is that you’re being bullied by the ‘time for change’ movement, not you, because in Scotland they’re afraid they’ll get rid of the SNP too.
John Swinney: We’ve got a different proposition to put people and that’s what’s dynamic about the election campaign in Scotland, that people can look at the SNP and see, well, this is a party that offers us something very different. So it offers us, for example, the prospect of independence, which will give us control over issues of public importance, over public finances, relations with Europe, international issues, our way. manage our economy. They can look at us and see us as a party prepared to invest in the National Health Service and safeguard the future of the National Health Service and protect it from privatisation. And they can see us as the party that took it. So they can see the alternatives and possibilities available to people in Scotland.
Krishnan Guru-Murthy: You say a vote for the SNP is a vote for independence. It’s actually a vote for a referendum, isn’t it?
John Swinney: It’s a vote to make sure Scotland has a choice about our future. yes already.
Krishnan Guru-Murthy: I mean, it’s a choice – vote for the SNP to ask for another referendum. Why aren’t you clear about this since your page says independence, which points to a different path? The route must be a referendum, right?
John Swinney: I do not dispute that the best way for Scotland to decide our constitutional future is in a referendum. That’s how we should do it.
Krishnan Guru-Murthy: So you are saying that if you get a majority of MPs, then you will start negotiations to get a referendum? It’s a high-risk strategy that, because if you don’t get the majority of MPs, you’ve turned off the call for independence again, maybe for another ten years?
John Swinney: The people of Scotland have expressed their opinion that there should be a referendum on independence. They did that in 2021. And so far, the Westminster government has really blocked the democratic will of the people of Scotland. Now we have the opportunity in this election to address these issues, to show that we in Scotland are not prepared to accept the blocking of independence by the UK government and to move forward on that journey. That’s what this election gives us the opportunity to do and that’s what the SNP manifesto says.
Krishnan Guru-Murthy: There are many Labor supporters who are also pro-independence today. Some people believe that the best way to change the position of the Labor Party is from within. What do you say to them?
John Swinney: I don’t think history is a big push at all, to be honest. I think that they should look at what the Labor Party is, because the Labor Party has now set an agenda, which is a continuation of the Conservative agenda on austerity, on Brexit. And I think people have to choose what they think is important and necessary for our country at this time, and I think we have to have a route out of austerity, a route out of Brexit and a route to a better future. And that comes from making sure decisions can be made in Scotland, for Scotland through independence.
Krishnan Guru-Murthy: You know that people will also judge you on your record in government, because you have been the ruling party here for 17 years. Isn’t it a problem that you can’t look people in the eye and say, we’ve changed your life? Something has already been done: prescription fees, tuition fees, of course. But poverty, life expectancy, this is still terrible in this part of Scotland. You don’t change people’s lives.
John Swinney: I have changed people’s lives. Let’s take the life of a child, for example, one born in Scotland. So when a child is born in Scotland, the family gets support from the state by providing a number of essential supports to every child born in our country. When the child reaches two and in some cases, in all cases, three, they have access to double the offer of early learning and childcare when this government comes. That saves the family £5,500 a year.
Krishnan Guru-Murthy: But look at the results. I’m not denying you’ve got a child poverty deal now too, but the bottom line is that in this part of Glasgow, if you’re a working-class person, you’re going to die in your sixties.
John Swinney: Let’s look at the results in relation to child poverty. So when it comes to child poverty, Scotland’s child poverty rate is lower than the rest of the UK. 24 percent in Scotland. Still very high. You know, my passion for eradicating child poverty is still very high, but in England it’s over 30 percent.
Krishnan Guru-Murthy: You have also fallen in the PISA education rankings?
John Swinney: If you look at other estimates of education, you can see, for example, in the National 5, we have got the highest level of passing in the National 5 that 2023 diet. Then if you look at the achievement gap related to poverty in basic education, we will see a significant gap of the achievement gap related to poverty, which is our goal to secure, so that we give the best start and the best prospects for young people. opportunities in Scotland. But all this is happening against the backdrop of 14 years of austerity. And we cannot avoid austerity. We have taken some hard decisions to buck the trend of austerity by increasing taxes on higher earners and I accept that the position is different and distinctive, but we do it to invest in our public services.
Krishnan Guru-Murthy: We’re pushed for time. So I would push this towards oil and gas and climate change. You made a deal, didn’t you? Oil and gas license to save a few people’s seats in the oil and gas area?
John Swinney: The journey to net zero is an inevitable reality, a necessity in our society. We must make the transition to net zero, and we must do so to address the climate emergency.
Krishnan Guru-Murthy: But you are not against all new oil and gas licenses. Kate Forbes is clear.
John Swinney: I said there is going to be a climate compatibility assessment of any oil and gas license.
Krishnan Guru-Murthy: No one knows what the problem means. Most people will say how is the new drill compatible with net zero?
John Swinney: What we have to do is we have to consider each individual application on a case-by-case basis to determine whether it can be consistent with the journey to net zero.
Krishnan Guru-Murthy: How? How new oil and gas can be consistent with…
John Swinney: Because there will be questions about energy security and where the oil is, because we will need oil for several years to come as part of the energy mix. This should be compatible with the journey to net zero but there will be the question of whether we should import oil from other sources. As such, there are a variety of complex questions to consider when deciding on the right attitude.
Krishnan Guru-Murthy: I mean if you call this the most left-wing manifesto in British politics today, but you’ve moved the SNP to the right, just as Labor has moved to the right on this.
John Swinney: Let’s take the question of austerity. We are the only party that offers an alternative to austerity, the conspiracy of silence, the Labor and Conservative parties on austerity. We have a very different position on this, challenging the British side on this. That is why our manifesto is the most left-of-center manifesto of all the major political parties. And if you take some of the other issues around the right to work and the approach you want to take, it will strengthen that credibility.
Krishnan Guru-Murthy: You don’t expect to be here alone. You are here because of the various scandals that have plagued the SNP in recent years. How much do you draw on Nicola Sturgeon’s advice, for example, because she doesn’t appear on the campaign trail, but she’s still popular there?
John Swinney: I’m talking to my ancestors. I spoke to my colleagues when formulating the best way forward for the Scottish National Party.
Krishnan Guru-Murthy: You are related?
John Swinney: Of course I am. I am the person who is here to lead the SNP through this election campaign and take us through the 2026 election, which I hope to win for Scotland. And the important thing about my leadership is that my leadership is founded on the important principle that I must constantly seek the trust of the people of Scotland, constantly build a relationship of trust with the public. This is the basis of my approach to politics in the past and will underpin my approach to politics in the future.
