The actor Amanda Abbington says she first complained to the BBC about her dance partner Giovanni Pernice within days of starting Strictly Come Dancing.
She then pulled out in week six – citing “personal reasons”.
Months later, an ongoing investigation into complaints about his alleged teaching methods led to him being left out of the 2024 series line-up.
Now she is speaking out publicly, accusing him of “abusive, cruel and mean” behaviour.
Giovanni Pernice has consistently denied wrongdoing, and tonight a spokesperson told us that he refutes any claim of threatening or abusive behaviour, while the BBC says it takes duty of care extremely seriously.
But Amanda Abbington says she and her family are now being subjected to “brutal, relentless and unforgiving” abuse by Strictly fans.
She is about to appear in a new play, about the aftermath of abuse in a family, called “When it Happens to You” at the Park Theatre in London. Krishnan met her there at rehearsals.
Krishnan Guru-Murthy: Amanda, it’s very nice to see you. I haven’t seen you since week 5 I think…
Amanda Abbington: I know.
Krishnan Guru-Murthy: …of Strictly. And here you are in north London, doing a play called ‘When It Happens to You’.
Amanda Abbington: Yes.
Krishnan Guru-Murthy: When you are right in the middle of it all happening to you.
Amanda Abbington: Yes, yes, but it’s very cathartic. This is a beautiful play. And it’s come just at the right moment.
Krishnan Guru-Murthy: How are you?
Amanda Abbington: See, you say that question, and I immediately get emotional and start to cry. I’m okay. You know. I’m okay.
Krishnan Guru-Murthy: I mean, this is not a normal interview because we were on the show together.
Amanda Abbington: In the trenches.
Krishnan Guru-Murthy: Yes, and I saw you having a hard time. And you’ve had a very hard year.
Amanda Abbington: Yes. It’s not been easy. This play has, it’s certainly reinforced my belief that you can be in a rehearsal room and be nurtured and looked after. Yes. It’s a leveller because you start to think, ‘oh, am I going mad?’ But as you know, I’m not mad as you know, but yes, it’s been brutal and relentless and unforgiving.
Krishnan Guru-Murthy: We will talk about the play, but I feel we have to talk about this because when you say it’s been brutal and unforgiving, I think we need to unpack that a little bit, about what has been brutal.
Amanda Abbington: Well, the aftermath has been something that I wasn’t expecting. The death threats and the rape threats towards not only myself, but my daughter and the threats of death to my son.
Krishnan Guru-Murthy: By what? By Strictly fans?
Amanda Abbington: And Giovanni (Pernice) fans and… yes, it’s just been, when you get like one or two of those, you can kind of go, ‘oh, God’, you know, but I was getting like dozens a day on socials, like dozens of people just saying, ‘just go and kill yourself. I hope you die of cancer. I hope, you know… just kill yourself. Your kids will be better off without you as a mother. I hope your daughter gets raped. I hope your son gets stabbed. You don’t deserve any good things for what you’ve done. How could you destroy something like Strictly. You’re a snowflake. You’re an idiot. You’re stupid. Poor Giovanni.’ And, it was just all the time.
So it was… and then, in the media, just people printing stuff that just wasn’t true as well. Things that didn’t happen. Didn’t happen. I was never asked back to the final, and I read a headline saying I’d snubbed the final. I didn’t snub a final. Nobody ever contacted me again to be back in that show. Not that I probably would have been able to go back. But the idea that I snubbed it… Because I’d made some wonderful friends on that show and the people, the contestants, and some of the other dancers were just joyful. I didn’t snub anybody. I left that show with my head held high.
Krishnan Guru-Murthy: Yes. And we’re all still in touch?
Amanda Abbington: Yeah. We are. We’re having a dinner soon. Hopefully.
Krishnan Guru-Murthy: You mentioned one of the things people call you is ‘snowflake.’
Amanda Abbington: Yes.
Krishnan Guru-Murthy: And there are columns at the moment that have been written, saying, ‘oh, you know, what’s wrong with all these people. They are all just weak. Dancing’s a tough game. And don’t they understand that it’s hard work.’ You’re an actor. You know what hard work is?
Amanda Abbington: Yeah. This play is hard work. It’s beautiful. It’s emotionally challenging. It’s wonderful. We’re on stage for 90 minutes. There’s four of us. Everything is just… it’s a whirlwind of a beautiful piece of storytelling. You’re in rehearsals from 10 to six. It’s the same thing. But you can nurture, have a room that is nurturing, and you get the best out of people when you look after them, when there is a duty of care, when you feel like you can fail and not feel like you’re stupid.
Krishnan Guru-Murthy: I had the opposite experience. I had an amazing time.
Amanda Abbington: You did. Yes.
Krishnan Guru-Murthy: It was life changing and I was very happy.
Amanda Abbington: There were lots of people in that particular, in our group that did.
Krishnan Guru-Murthy: Yes.
Amanda Abbington: Some that didn’t, some that did.
Krishnan Guru-Murthy: And so I kind of want to understand why it was different for you and I, we came out of this in such different places.
Amanda Abbington: Yes.
Krishnan Guru-Murthy: And it’s been very long lasting.
Amanda Abbington: Yes.
Krishnan Guru-Murthy: …for you, particularly. And so, I mean, when we all began, you actually texted me and said, ‘so happy’.
Amanda Abbington: Yes, I was. I was.
Krishnan Guru-Murthy: …when you got your reveal as to who your partner was.
Amanda Abbington: I was thrilled. And then I got several messages saying ‘I’m so sorry’.
Krishnan Guru-Murthy: What did you go into it thinking?
Amanda Abbington: I went into it thinking, this is going to be hard work. I’m looking forward to the challenge. I want to learn new dances. It’s going to be fun. It’s a Saturday night television show on BBC One, so there will be an element of hard work. I get that. I’m a hard worker. I’m a grafter. But there will also be time to have a laugh and be… And I’ve been in rehearsal rooms all my life, so I know what they’re like, and I know how they can be. I wasn’t expecting this, that’s all.
Krishnan Guru-Murthy: Because I met a friend of yours, I think, in the first week, who told me ‘Amanda’s going to win. She’s in this to win.’ And I was like ‘oh blimey, she’s really serious.’ And you were great. You were very, very good very, very quickly.
Amanda Abbington: Yes.
Krishnan Guru-Murthy: So you’d gone in there wanting to work hard.
Amanda Abbington: Yes, but I go into anything wanting to work hard. I have a strong work ethic. The fact that people think I’m lazy and that I was like, ‘she didn’t know what she was letting herself in for.’ Yes, I did, of course I did. I know what I was letting myself in for. I didn’t know I was letting myself in for that.
Krishnan Guru-Murthy: So what happened?
Amanda Abbington: It wasn’t what I expected it to be. It was, I mean, I can’t go into too many details about it because the complaint is ongoing with the BBC, and I can’t say anything about it.
Krishnan Guru-Murthy: Just explain that, because I think a lot of people are confused as to why you’re not able to say more.
Amanda Abbington: Because at the moment they’re gathering evidence from various places and from the BBC and from witnesses and from other dancers and from other choreographers and other witnesses and people who have been on the show in the past. So they’re gathering all that information, and then they’re going to assess it. So I can’t speak about specifics what happened, even though…
Krishnan Guru-Murthy: That’s what they’ve told you?
Amanda Abbington: Yes. So I’m going to honour that. I’m not going to say, ‘oh yeah. You know, my complaint is going to be upheld’ because I don’t, I hope it is, because it wasn’t good, and I wasn’t the only person that experienced that. People before me experienced the same thing I did. If it had just been me coming out saying all this stuff, I can understand why people go, ‘oh, God’, but there were five or six other people previously to me who had the same experience.
Krishnan Guru-Murthy: You said it was abusive, cruel. You’re talking about sort of, verbal…
Amanda Abbington: Yes. And it was unnecessary, and when that was getting thrown at me, I’d shut down because I’ve been in abusive situations before in the past. So I recognise the flag, I recognise the red flags. So I’d shut down and would stop, wouldn’t be able to do the job. I wouldn’t be able to do it because I felt attacked. Not literally attacked. You have to be so careful with what you say. People will go, ‘well, you know…’
Krishnan Guru-Murthy: We’re in a bizarre situation now where the bar of what is abuse, now seems to be, ‘well, you’re being beaten up.’
Amanda Abbington: Yes.
Krishnan Guru-Murthy: And that’s not really what this is about, is it?
Amanda Abbington: No. You can have all types of abuse: emotional, physical, mental. But it was just, it was not conducive to a happy environment.
Krishnan Guru-Murthy: And that was obvious to everyone.
Amanda Abbington: I think yes. I would have people coming up to me saying, ‘I’m so sorry. Are you okay? Can we do anything? Are you okay?’ In the group chats, everyone saying, ‘I’m so sorry. Amanda, I’m so sorry. I’m so sorry’.
Krishnan Guru-Murthy: Yesterday, the director general (of the BBC) said he apologised to Strictly contestants. Not to you specifically. What did you make of what he said?
Amanda Abbington: Well I’m glad he’s acknowledged it. The thing is, you see, people have been saying, I read an article saying, ‘Amanda wants to bring down Strictly.’ No, I mean, I love Strictly. I would loved to have had a beautiful experience on it, I really would. I’m envious of the people who had a wonderful experience on that show, and I’m so glad they did. And I feel really sad that I didn’t get to fulfil my journey. I left because there was… a medical thing happened, which I also can’t go into at the moment. But that was my catalyst for leaving. And when I found out there was something wrong, the relief I felt when I found out that I had some, you know, there was a problem. And that’s not a good sort of sense mechanism.
Krishnan Guru-Murthy: Just to be clear, are you saying you left because of the medical issue or?
Amanda Abbington: No, that was my final straw. That was my reason for leaving, but…
Krishnan Guru-Murthy: The official reason?
Amanda Abbington: Yes. The underlying one was like,’ oh, thank God I don’t have to do this anymore. That’s given me a reason, that’s given me a reason to leave. Because I need to deal with that. That has to take precedence. Now I have to get that sorted out and make sure I’m well.’ And then when I did that, I thought, I don’t want to get back into that room.
Krishnan Guru-Murthy: And how did you feel you were treated by the BBC?
Amanda Abbington: I don’t know, because I didn’t… I felt a little bit like, I guess, I felt a little bit like, ‘okay’, that’s how it felt. I’m not going to be horrible. I got several messages afterwards from some of the producers, just checking in to see how I was. But then when all the fallout happened and then everybody started piling on and the death threats came in and they were reported in the press, and then all the misinformation went out there, I didn’t really hear from anybody again though.
Krishnan Guru-Murthy: So there wasn’t aftercare after the end of the series?
Amanda Abbington: No no, no. No.
Krishnan Guru-Murthy: Do you think they should have been?
Amanda Abbington: It would have been nice. I suppose, yes, I suppose.
Krishnan Guru-Murthy: Did you go and see the counsellor?
Amanda Abbington: I did, yes.
Krishnan Guru-Murthy: Because I went a couple of times.
Amanda Abbington: Yes, I did, you know, and it was fine.
Krishnan Guru-Murthy: But that’s not enough.
Amanda Abbington: But you can’t really… I don’t know, when you were in that room for 7 or 8 hours a day, you start to accept that as the norm. You start to think, ‘okay, well’.
Krishnan Guru-Murthy: Well, that’s the thing isn’t it, because the other thing that happened during while we were there was, these stories started coming out that all was not right.
Amanda Abbington: Yes.
Krishnan Guru-Murthy: Because it’s the leakiest ship in the world. And then you went on Instagram and you denied it, and you said that’s not true. I found that a bit confusing because I thought, ‘well, it is true. Why are you saying that?’ Why did you feel you had to say that?
Amanda Abbington: Because I didn’t want to rock the boat. I didn’t want to upset, I wanted it to look like it was, you know, okay. And I wanted it to work that’s the other thing, I did want… I was trying my hardest every week to make that room a nicer place to be in. I genuinely was. I would come in full of, ‘let’s do this’, and continually let him down. Continually.
Krishnan Guru-Murthy: That’s how you felt or that’s how you were made to feel?
Amanda Abbington: Completely. Both. Both. I felt like I was not doing a good job. I felt like I was letting him down. I was disappointing him.
Krishnan Guru-Murthy: You see, some people will say, well, ‘is it you or is it what’s…’
Amanda Abbington: No, because I…
Krishnan Guru-Murthy: … it’s how you were being treated?’
Amanda Abbington: I will always take the blame for things. Like I always say, ‘it was my fault, you know? I’m sorry’, but I would check myself and think, ‘no, this is not… I know I’m not going mad. I’m not seeing this happen in many other rooms.’ Everyone’s having a nice time and I just felt like I wasn’t, I wasn’t having a nice time. And I found it increasingly difficult to go into work.
Krishnan Guru-Murthy: I’m in a strange position in that I know some of the answers to these questions, because you told me stuff before in confidence, that I’m not going to reveal. But what can you say about what actually was going on? Was it just verbal. Was it…?
Amanda Abbington: Well there’s 50 hours of footage, that’s being blocked. I mean, 50 hours is a lot of footage. And a lot of time spent in a room that was toxic.
- Krishnan Guru-Murthy: So this is footage when we were all being filmed, for video or…?
Amanda Abbington: No, no, no, no. So in the first week, I raised my concerns to the producers, and they very quickly said ‘we’ll put…’ Well, I mean, Giovanni said that he asked for the cameras. He didn’t ask for the cameras. I know that he didn’t ask for the cameras, because the producers came to me and said, ‘we’re going to put in cameras so we can view the footage at the end of the week and make an assessment and see what’s going on’. And then every Friday after that, for the next sort of five weeks, I would get the producer saying on the Friday, ‘we’ve just watched the footage, but we are shocked and horrified. We’re so sorry’.
Krishnan Guru-Murthy: You had messages from them saying that?
Amanda Abbington: No, it was to my face on the Friday when we would go in and do the camera rehearsal. So they, you know, it’s out. It’s out there. There is evidence out there, what happened in that room. And I’m not the one who’s blocking.
Krishnan Guru-Murthy: But are you saying it’s bullying or what is it?
Amanda Abbington: Yes, it’s bullying and it’s aggressive behaviour and there were other things that happened that were quite, that were very upsetting that you manage in the room at the time because you’re a woman and you have to manage those things. And you have to manage those things because otherwise, what do you do?
Krishnan Guru-Murthy: I heard not from you, from somebody else about an instance of, I suppose you’d call it humiliating behaviour, of a sexual nature. Is that right?
Amanda Abbington: Yes.
Krishnan Guru-Murthy: Sorry.
Amanda Abbington: It’s all right. It’s okay. Yes.
Krishnan Guru-Murthy: Not harassment, but humiliation.
Amanda Abbington: Yes. I mean, you know, one of the many things. Yes. Sorry.
Krishnan Guru-Murthy: You wanted the footage?
Amanda Abbington: Yes.
Krishnan Guru-Murthy: And you can’t get it.
Amanda Abbington: No, I’m not allowed it.
Krishnan Guru-Murthy: And are you doing…
Amanda Abbington: Well my lawyer’s not allowed it.
Krishnan Guru-Murthy: Are you doing anything to challenge that?
Amanda Abbington: My lawyer is trying to challenge that.
Krishnan Guru-Murthy: How are you challenging it?
Amanda Abbington: I don’t know. She’s amazing. Persephanie is just this most amazing, incredible woman. And she’s trying now to get a lift off on that because I’ve said anyone can watch it. But he doesn’t want anyone to see it, which is quite telling, you know, if you’ve got nothing to hide.
- Krishnan Guru-Murthy: But it’s the BBC’s footage, so they’ve viewed it, they can watch it, but you can’t have it yourself?
Amanda Abbington: I can’t have it myself, so I can’t review it. My lawyers can’t review it and they can’t make an assessment. They can go by what I’ve told them and messages that I’ve had from people and text messages that I’ve had from past contestants and people who know, you know, but they can’t…
Krishnan Guru-Murthy: So when, when did other people start contacting you?
Amanda Abbington: The day it broke that I was dancing with him.
Krishnan Guru-Murthy: His past dance partners were getting in touch with you and saying what?
- Amanda Abbington: ‘I’m so sorry.’
Krishnan Guru-Murthy: Really? That’s a really odd thing to do.
Amanda Abbington: ‘I’m so sorry. You know, you’ll have a… it’s going to be quite tough’.
Krishnan Guru-Murthy: Alright.
Amanda Abbington: I said okay. Well, you know, I’m quite a tough old bird. Clearly not that tough. But, yes, I thought I could… Yes. You know, because… I’ve been around the block a bit, you know, but.
Krishnan Guru-Murthy: And when did you decide to actually put in a formal complaint?
Amanda Abbington: Well, it was sometime after I left because I was umming and ahhing about it, because I knew if I did that, then I’d get what subsequently has happened to me, which is abuse and being called a liar and sort of overreacting and unstable and mad and hysterical. But the reason I did it was because I spoke to two other contestants and they came to my house and we talked about it, and we discussed our experiences. And my best friend said to me, ‘what would you do, you know, if your 70-year-old self looked back, what would she feel about this particular moment of your life? If you don’t make a complaint, if you don’t say something, how would you feel?’ And I thought, I’d probably feel very guilty.
Because I didn’t want anyone else to go through what I had been through in that room and what past contestants had been through in that room. It would have sat really uncomfortably with me had I known, knowing what I know, allowed somebody else to go through that. I mean, they might not have done, I don’t know, but judging from other people that I’d spoken to in the past who danced with him, they had similar experiences, and the idea of somebody else having to go through that, I was like, ‘oh, I don’t want that’. And all I wanted to do was flag up bad behaviour.
Krishnan Guru-Murthy: What is the aim of your complaint? Are you suing the BBC or trying…?
Amanda Abbington: No. Well my lawyer is, I keep saying she’s wonderful, she’s got all sorts of things going on at the moment with this.
Krishnan Guru-Murthy: Do you think you were owed a financial settlement?
Amanda Abbington: Well, I was treated badly, the loss of earnings and emotional trauma. Yeah, definitely. I mean, I’ve had death threats day after day and rape threats day after day. Just because I said, ‘I don’t think this is acceptable behaviour. Can we just acknowledge this at all? Can we just look into this, maybe? I know it’s not endemic of Strictly. But there are pockets of things that shouldn’t be happening. Can you look at those and make sure that they don’t happen in the future? I’m not taking anything away from Strictly. It’s a wonderful organisation and it’s a fantastic thing on Saturday night. I don’t want it to die. I want it to have a life. But these things that are happening aren’t right, and they need to be looked at and they’re not being looked at, and I think they should. For future people going into the show as well.’ So I just wanted them to acknowledge that there was bad behaviour going on, not only with me clearly, but with other people, and that needed to be addressed.
Krishnan Guru-Murthy: And have you been given any undertaking from the BBC as to what will happen? Will they publish anything? Will they tell you the results of any investigation?
Amanda Abbington: No, they haven’t really said anything to my lawyers about anything that’s happening. We’re just waiting at the moment. We’re waiting. But I know that a lot of people went in to speak to them.
Krishnan Guru-Murthy: I know there are other people who, all the people who contacted you, are you working as a group or…?
Amanda Abbington: Yes. I mean I’m like I’m the official complainer.
Krishnan Guru-Murthy: So how many are there?
Amanda Abbington: I think there’s about five or six I think from what I can gather.
Krishnan Guru-Murthy: Well in your group, who are you the spokesman for? Is it five or six?
Amanda Abbington: Well, to be honest, I don’t know how many people have gone in to speak to them. I know that there have been a lot of people, but there are three… there’s three main people…
Krishnan Guru-Murthy: Right.
Amanda Abbington: …who made complaints. Mine’s the official one.
Krishnan Guru-Murthy: But they don’t want to identify themselves.
Amanda Abbington: No.
Krishnan Guru-Murthy: They’ve been widely talked about in the papers, or speculated about. The big thing that changed was the revelation about Zara and Graziano. And the shocking revelation that something had happened that was on camera that we don’t know what it is because no one has seen it, but it was said to be sort of something physically abusive. And that he acknowledged that he behaved badly. How did that change things?
Amanda Abbington: Well, for a moment, people were like, ‘oh, okay, okay, maybe there is something in this’. I think people don’t believe me. That’s what’s so upsetting, is that people don’t believe what happened in there was as serious as I’m… I know I haven’t said anything because I can’t, but, you know, the idea that I would make something up like that, knowing how popular the show is and knowing how popular he is, that I would make something up like that, to tell the world about it, expecting a barrage… it baffles me to think that… I wasn’t going to do it because I was terrified of not being believed. And actually, as it turns out, most people don’t believe me. But it was my experience.
Krishnan Guru-Murthy: So when there’s a case that is acknowledged, and everybody says ‘yes’.
Amanda Abbington: When there’s concrete evidence and there’s footage, quite understandably, people go, ‘oh yeah, I know’, but because this is all just what I’m saying and text messages from people and, even though there is 50 hours of footage out there that is there, it’s quite frustrating.
Krishnan Guru-Murthy: And did his behaviour change at all on camera and off camera? I mean, is there more that happened off camera? Because you would have thought, somebody who knows they’re being filmed, deliberately..
Amanda Abbington: Yes. I don’t really understand what..
Krishnan Guru-Murthy: ..would alter their behaviour.
Amanda Abbington: Yes. I think it didn’t bother him. I just think it didn’t bother him. I don’t know.
Krishnan Guru-Murthy: My view on that, because I was filmed about 30% of the time, was that we never imagined for a second that the footage was going to be used for anything other than making us all look good.
Amanda Abbington: Yes.
Krishnan Guru-Murthy: So it didn’t matter. So, I mean, I cried, because we all had difficult times. Not because I was being given any abuse, but because it was stressful, and difficult and I was struggling at times.
Amanda Abbington: And that’s stressful when you are with a partner who is empathetic and is kind.
Krishnan Guru-Murthy: Yes, exactly. I cried when Lauren said, ‘how are you?’ And I started crying. Same thing, because I was just finding it physically hard and emotionally hard. But my view on it was I didn’t need to adjust my behaviour because the cameras were on my side. In your case they were there to monitor behaviour?
Amanda Abbington: Yes.
Krishnan Guru-Murthy: But it didn’t make a difference?
Amanda Abbington: No, no not really. Clearly it didn’t, no, because otherwise I wouldn’t have complained about it. I wouldn’t have complained about it, I wouldn’t have done it unless I really felt like this was unfair.
Krishnan Guru-Murthy: People have sort of said, ‘this is about the dancers’ culture.’ I mean, I think it’s a lot to do with dance culture, and the way that they’ve all been trained and grown up since they have very little. It’s a brutal industry. It’s amazing and beautiful, but it’s also really, really tough. And if you’ve been brought up that way, then that’s what you think training is. Do you think there’s anything in that?
Amanda Abbington: No. Because I’m still friends with quite a few of the dancers on Strictly and they… It’s hard. They teach, they’re good teachers, but, you know…
Krishnan Guru-Murthy: Most people know boundaries?
Amanda Abbington: Yes, I think so. Yes, definitely. I’m not out to, you know, people saying I’m out to ruin somebody… I’m not out to ruin anybody’s career. I’m not out to kind, I’m not out to get anybody. I just didn’t think the way that I was being taught in that room was helpful or kind or healthy, and that’s why I said something.
Krishnan Guru-Murthy: But what about the pressure of the whole thing as well? Because obviously, the longer they stay in, the higher profile they get, and the more opportunities there are to become a bigger personality and a celebrity in your own right. Does that kind of pressure add to it?
Amanda Abbington: Yes. As the weeks go on you know they want to win. I just wanted to do it because I wanted to learn a few dances and have a nice time on a Saturday night.
Krishnan Guru-Murthy: Yes, most of us.
Amanda Abbington: It was never going to be like I was joining the Marines. It was just like, ‘oh yeah, I’d love to do that. I’ve always wanted to do that’. But as the weeks go on, yes, it gets more and more, the pressure is on, and I’m 52. I was 52 at the time. I’m not an athlete. I can’t do some of the things that he expected me to do. I’ll try.
Krishnan Guru-Murthy: I saw you kick your leg on the first dance.
Amanda Abbington: But you know it becomes more and more relentless, you know? And if you have somebody who is in that room, is kind and looks after you and, and is nurturing, then that’s great.
Krishnan Guru-Murthy: Yes. Well, that’s what I had.
Amanda Abbington: Yeah, exactly. And I know a lot of other people on that show had that as well. I was very envious.
Krishnan Guru-Murthy: What now then? Because the BBC has sort of said its general apology and that the show goes on.
Amanda Abbington: Which I’m very pleased about. I wanted it to. I didn’t want it to end. I think it’s a British institution. It’s fantastic. But I think I want my complaint upheld.
Krishnan Guru-Murthy: Do you think chaperones make a big difference?
Amanda Abbington: I don’t know. I’m not sure. I think, you know..
Krishnan Guru-Murthy: Given there were people in the room anyway.
Amanda Abbington: Yes, and they weren’t allowed to say anything. So I don’t know whether that will make a huge amount of difference, I hope, maybe it will if there’s training involved or if there are people kind of, you know, to..
Krishnan Guru-Murthy: Do you have suggestions of what should change. If they came to you and said, ‘how can we stop this happening?’ Which you’d have thought they would’ve done by now?
Amanda Abbington: I suppose, you know, it’s like we’re not dancers who go onto that show. None of us are dancers. And so with that in mind, it’s to remember that, it’s just a Saturday night entertainment show.
Krishnan Guru-Murthy: If you were asked to write the prescription. What would you say, this is what you need to do?
Amanda Abbington: I would say that I would speak to maybe the professional dancers and say, ‘remember this is supposed to be fun. And these aren’t dancers, these people that come in here. They just want to have a nice time. They want to learn. They want to work hard, no doubt about that. But it’s just to remember that it’s not… it should be fun and it should be a kind place to work and it should, yes, the motivation to win at the end shouldn’t drive you to behave badly.’ I don’t know what the answer is actually. I don’t know. I don’t know whether chaperones would work. I don’t know whether, because, it differs for every person as well.
Krishnan Guru-Murthy: And would you advise people to do it? I don’t, because I always say it’s so personal, because I said ‘no’ for years.
Amanda Abbington: Yes, me too.
Krishnan Guru-Murthy: And it’s such a sort of a personal decision. It’s a really big decision. So I always say, you know, I wouldn’t ever advise anyone to do it or not to do it.
Amanda Abbington: It takes a lot out of your life. You become consumed by it. If you have a nice person dancing with you, it’s one of the most rewarding experiences I think. People I’ve worked with, with you, on our show who have wonderful memories of it. And I think it’s a great thing to do if you want to have fun and learn how to dance and be terrified as well because it’s a terrifying experience. But, yes, I would think long and hard about doing it because it does, like I say, it takes up a lot of your time.
Krishnan Guru-Murthy: It’ll be interesting to see how many women and what women have joined up this time and whether it’s been hard to get people.
Amanda Abbington: Yes. Yes. I don’t know.
Krishnan Guru-Murthy: You’re now doing a play about an abusive situation.
Amanda Abbington: Yes.
Krishnan Guru-Murthy: Is this a healthy thing for you to be doing?
Amanda Abbington: Yes. Yes. Because this play is, it’s a beautiful piece of storytelling, and it’s based on a true story. Tawni O’Dell. It’s based on her own experience with her daughter. And it’s not a play that is negative in any way. It’s one of those beautifully crafted pieces of theatre that, when you watch it, you’re immediately in it and you’re on a roller coaster. It’s 90 minutes, no interval. The actors are all on stage at the same time for the whole thing. And it’s a journey, that comes out of, something that happens to the daughter, and it’s an exploration of love and overcoming that and dealing with that and moving forward. And it’s life affirming, weirdly enough.
It’s a beautiful, life affirming piece of theatre and so doing it, being in a rehearsal room where you can just fail or get it wrong and then just laugh about it and then move on. What we’re getting out of this is… because it’s such a nurturing place, the progress we’ve made with this play in two weeks is staggering because it’s a safe place. So you create when you’re in a safe place, you get more out of the person that you’re teaching or you’re working with, if you’re kind and if you’re generous with your spirit and your time.
Krishnan Guru-Murthy: It’s therapeutic?
Amanda Abbington: It completely is. And this play is, this play is a beautiful therapeutic experience.
Krishnan Guru-Murthy: You were diagnosed with PTSD.
Amanda Abbington: Yes.
Krishnan Guru-Murthy: What did that mean?
Amanda Abbington: This is the other thing. Like a doctor told me that, right? A doctor said, ‘oh, you’ve got mild PTSD’, and I said, ‘oh, really? That’s so weird’. And I told my friends that, and they were like, ‘yes, we saw you. We know.’ Because I thought it was ridiculous that I would have done, because people were saying, ‘oh, she’s got mild PTSD. How dare she? Our poor veterans, our poor army.’ I was like, ‘I didn’t say it.’ I wasn’t the one that went, ‘hey, everybody, I’ve come back from Vietnam. Look at me.’ And it wasn’t that. I was diagnosed it by a doctor. I told people, they then told the press, and all of a sudden, I’m this villain who’s going, ‘yeah, I know what people are like coming back from Afghanistan. It’s the same thing.’ It wasn’t.
I’d been triggered in that room by past experiences, and it still has a lasting effect on me. Like, I still can’t talk about certain things that happened in that room because it immediately triggers a feeling of anxiety. And that’s not right. This is a BBC show on a Saturday night. This response shouldn’t happen from a BBC show. That’s crazy. So, yes, I was diagnosed with it. I do still have trouble going out on my own and feeling very exposed. And when I talk about certain aspects of what happened in the room, I do cry. I do get emotional, I do shake. Because it was awful. It just was awful.
Krishnan Guru-Murthy: So how do you feel about facing an audience in here? Because it’s very intimate.
Amanda Abbington: It’s a beautiful space and it’s a wonderful play. That’s the thing. I feel safe here because I’ve been, we’ve worked in a room together for two and a half weeks now, and so this feels like I’ve come home sort of thing. I know, you know, actors say ridiculous things, but it does. It feels like the Park Theatre generates a feeling of safety. Like you can come in this theatre and it’s not rocket science. You can just feel safe because it’s full of people who have compassion and who, if there is a problem they’re immediately on it and go, ‘What? What’s going on? How can we deal with this? How do we make…’
Krishnan Guru-Murthy: So you’re not worried about who’s going to be in the room, who’s coming and whether there’s Strictly fans coming?
Amanda Abbington: Well, if they do then, you know, I don’t know. If they come, I don’t really understand why they would come if they don’t like me because they’ve paid money to come and see me. So they’re paying money to come and see me. I hope people come and see this play, because it’s a fantastic piece of theatre about family and love and facing your challenges and, and moving forward and nurture and family.
Krishnan Guru-Murthy: Give me a sense of the extracts that we’re going to see.
Amanda Abbington: We’re doing a piece where I say goodbye to my son at the airport because it’s very stylised. So there’s no props. We have no props in this play. There is no, it’s just four people on a stage. We have a fifth character which is essentially the soundscape. It’s very filmic. It’s evocative and it brings up beautiful images. All the creatives, like the set designer, the costume designer, the lighting designer, the sound designer, and the stage manage crew, all female. Jez made sure that we have this beautiful all female crew that can… and it feels like we’re making magic. It does. It’s a fabulous piece of theatre.
Krishnan Guru-Murthy: Do you worry about your career now? I mean, people who take on the BBC, generally, and I think I probably said this to you very early on when I didn’t really know how bad things were, that it’s a dangerous thing taking on an organisation as big as the BBC.
Amanda Abbington: Yes. Yes. But, you know, be better. Just be better. You know, it’s not hard. Just be aware of what’s going on. And then when it is going on, when you see it’s going on, nip it in the bud. Don’t don’t allow it to continue.
Krishnan Guru-Murthy: Has anyone senior come to see you? Talk to you?
Amanda Abbington: No. No. Nobody. Nobody. I haven’t heard from anybody.
Krishnan Guru-Murthy: Who is the most senior person at the BBC who’s spoken to you since Strictly?
Amanda Abbington: I haven’t spoken to anyone from the BBC since Strictly. Nobody’s reached out to me since Strictly, either through me or through my lawyer. Nobody has…
Krishnan Guru-Murthy: Have you tried to speak to them? Tim Davie said yesterday, ‘come and talk to me. You know, if you’ve had a bad experience.’
Amanda Abbington: Yes. Okay. Well, I will then.
Krishnan Guru-Murthy: Are you going to give him a ring?
Amanda Abbington: I’ll talk to him. I’ll tell him. I can tell him what happened in that room. I don’t have any, I’m not ashamed of what I did in that room, because I didn’t do anything wrong in that room. I didn’t do anything wrong in that room. That courtesy wasn’t extended to me. It’s just as simple as that. And it could have been so easily because there were pockets of moments when that did happen, that he was nice and he was positive. And then that quickly ended, and it became unworkable again, disastrously unworkable, horribly unworkable. So I know what I did in that room, and I know I did the best I could do. I know I worked as hard as I could. I know that I put in 100% commitment to that.
Krishnan Guru-Murthy: What do you think should happen to him? Should he be allowed back to do anything?
Amanda Abbington: Well I can’t, I don’t…
Krishnan Guru-Murthy: As far as you’re concerned, this is sort of like..
Amanda Abbington: I’m not going to make any… I know he’s made very disparaging comments about me recently in public.
Krishnan Guru-Murthy: Well referred to a mad woman who we can only assume was you?
Amanda Abbington: Yes. And he’s also called me unstable.
Krishnan Guru-Murthy: What did you think of that?
Amanda Abbington: I’ve been called worse, but if he thinks I’m unstable, if he thinks my complaining about his teaching is unstable, then I’m so sorry. I’m really sorry that you think that. It wasn’t only about that, though. There were many other things that I had to manage in that room. And then I would go home and go, ‘that wasn’t right, I shouldn’t. That’s bad. That was bad. ‘
Krishnan Guru-Murthy: And how are you going to get better? It’s obvious how raw this is. You’ve got to get to a position where you can talk about this without crying.
Amanda Abbington: Yeah.
Krishnan Guru-Murthy: How do you do that?
Amanda Abbington: I suppose keep talking about it. And also just making… allowing people to be able to go and complain that’s the other thing. You know, being able to go… not even complain, to voice your concerns. If you feel like you’re being bullied or you feel like this thing, this situation that you’re in, feels toxic and unsafe, having the courage to go and say something is so important, and we are not cultivating that environment. We are making out that women who complain, not complain, women who voice their concerns about a situation are trolled through the press, sent death threats, rape threats, and not taken seriously.
Krishnan Guru-Murthy: Often by women.
Amanda Abbington: Yes. What I experienced in that room happened. I know it happened because it happened to me. And I’m not a sensational person. I’m not hysterical. I don’t make things out to be bigger than they are. I know what happened to me in that room wasn’t acceptable. I complained about it and sort of have not been taken seriously. Not only me, three other women and more potentially coming forward.
We have to cultivate a society, an environment where women can come forward and say, yes, or men, because it happens to men as well: ‘I’m finding this uncomfortable. Can you do something about it?’ And then something can be done about it. That’s all. And I think we need to be brave. And I want to stand up for any woman, any woman who feels that they don’t have a voice. I will be there for her, championing her and saying, ‘yes, I’ve got you.’
Krishnan Guru-Murthy: The difficulty with these sorts of situations is often that people in the industry, who are often men in charge, will say, ‘Amanda Abbington, do we want to risk her?’
Amanda Abbington: Yes, I know. But I haven’t done anything wrong. All I did was go, ‘this isn’t right, is it?’ That’s all I did. And if you’re behaving well, I’m not going to say that. And 99% of the time, in everything I’ve ever done, it’s been a beautiful experience. It’s been a wonderful experience. It had to have been really bad for me to have complained.
Krishnan Guru-Murthy: But this kind of work is also how you recover I guess?
Amanda Abbington: Yes. I love my job. I love my job. I’ve lost a lot of confidence in my job, in my ability. Certainly. I feel very vulnerable and exposed and have no confidence at the moment. Yes, but this is my, you know, particularly working… Like this was the perfect job to come back to. The Park Theatre and working with Jez and doing this play. It was the perfect antidote to what I had experienced.
Krishnan Guru-Murthy: The weird thing about confidence is, you had a terrible time, but you are a brilliant dancer. Everybody said that.
Amanda Abbington: Apparently yes.
Krishnan Guru-Murthy: So the one thing you shouldn’t be lacking in is confidence in your ability?
Amanda Abbington: Yes, but if you’ve been told that you are not very good, you kind of believe it. That’s what happens I guess. But hopefully, this is a beautiful play and it needs to be seen and it’s got a very powerful message.
Krishnan Guru-Murthy: What can you tell me about the story of the play?
Amanda Abbington: It’s by Tawni O’Dell, who is an American novelist and writer, and she had an experience that happened to her daughter and this play is about the fallout from that, and how a family come together and deal with this thing that happened. Rape is at the centre of it, but it’s not a play about rape. It’s a play about everything that happens out of that, and the ripple effect of what that terrible thing has happened, and how love and nurture and owning that can triumph over that. It’s a play about hope and it’s a play about joy and moving on. There are some beautiful moments. You will laugh, and you will cry probably at the same time. It’s a thoroughly beautiful, uplifting piece of theatre. When I read it, I read it in one sitting and I spoke to Jez and I said ‘I have to do this. This has to be out there because it is important because also it is so beautifully written.’ And the way that Jez is doing it, with the lighting and the sound, the soundscapes and the movement in it, and the three other actors. We’ve got three other beautiful actors in it, and it’s a labour of love and you feel that when you’re in it, and certainly when you watch it.
Krishnan Guru-Murthy: Thank you for doing this.
Amanda Abbington: Thank you for having me.
Krishnan Guru-Murthy: It was lovely to see you again.
Amanda Abbington: Lovely to see you too. Thank you.
In a statement Giovanni Pernice’s representatives said: “We are cooperating fully with the BBC’s review process. All parties have been asked to respect this process and to not speak to the media before it concludes. We will continue to respect the integrity of the investigation and believe it is the right forum for all the evidence to be reviewed.
“As part of the evidence-led review, the BBC has shared the allegations they have been able to substantiate with us. They do not resemble Amanda’s latest allegations, given to Channel 4, in any shape or form. Giovanni refutes any claim of threatening or abusive behaviour, and having provided the BBC with his evidence, is confident that the review will prove this.”
The BBC said: “Anyone involved in a complaint has a right to confidentiality and fair process and therefore it would be inappropriate to comment further on individuals. However, when issues are raised with us we always take them extremely seriously and have appropriate processes in place to manage this. As we have said before, we would urge people not to indulge in speculation.
“More generally, the BBC and BBC Studios takes duty of care extremely seriously. Our processes on Strictly Come Dancing are updated every year, they are kept under constant review and last week we announced additional steps to further strengthen welfare and support on the show. “
